Template talk:Alcohol and health

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This template was considered for deletion on 26 March 2010. The result of the discussion was "keep".

The Alcohol and health portal was recently deleted. I've removed the red link from the template. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 12:40, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2019-04-28T12:40:00.000Z","author":"BlackcurrantTea","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-BlackcurrantTea-2019-04-28T12:40:00.000Z-Link_to_deleted_portal_removed","replies":[]}}-->

Religious use is unrelated to the topic of this template, as it is not directly related to health, nor do the religion article linked address health issues. If there is not an alcohol and religion template, then make one - but don't try to WP:COATRACK this only tangentially related topic here. We don't want this template on the religion articles listed, because it is clearly an attempt to promote that alcohol has health issues on articles that have nothing to do with those health issues. Skyerise (talk) 19:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240407193500","author":"Skyerise","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Skyerise-20240407193500-Alcohol_and_religion","replies":["c-94.255.152.53-20240407193800-Skyerise-20240407193500"]}}-->

@Skyerise: I agree, how about a "Drugs and religion" template? --94.255.152.53 (talk) 19:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240407193800","author":"94.255.152.53","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-94.255.152.53-20240407193800-Skyerise-20240407193500","replies":["c-Skyerise-20240407194400-94.255.152.53-20240407193800"]}}-->

That is covered in the appropriate template {{Religion and topic}}. I think these are better covered in article space, and the robust template that covers all the composite topics is perfectly sufficient for navigation. You use of templates seems sort of POV-pushy to me. Skyerise (talk) 19:44, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240407194400","author":"Skyerise","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Skyerise-20240407194400-94.255.152.53-20240407193800","replies":["c-94.255.152.53-20240407194900-Skyerise-20240407194400"]}}-->

@Skyerise: It's not POV. I'm just used to use this template. I don't mind at all that you removed the text. Thank you for your suggestion. Night. --94.255.152.53 (talk) 19:49, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240407194900","author":"94.255.152.53","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-94.255.152.53-20240407194900-Skyerise-20240407194400","replies":["c-Skyerise-20240407195300-94.255.152.53-20240407194900"]}}-->

The {{Religion and topic}} template was created specifically to avoid a long list of templates for all sorts of 'religion and' combinations on all the religion articles. Perhaps you should discuss at the appropriate WP:WikiProject Religion talk pages before just wading into a controversial topic without consensus from the project? Skyerise (talk) 19:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240407195300","author":"Skyerise","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Skyerise-20240407195300-94.255.152.53-20240407194900","replies":[]}}-->

"There are already an astonishing number of articles on alcohol on Wikipedia, see Index of alcohol-related articles and Template:Alcohol and health (which that same IP has helpfully expanded). Not to mention the confusion about which article is the overview of the overviews - this [[Alcohol (drug)]] page? Ethanol? Alcohol (chemistry)? Alcoholic beverage? I really think some tree shaking is needed to consolidate the articles along lines that make more sense. Probably some renames too, like I think at this point I would just rename Template:Alcohol and health to Template:Alcohol. That being said, I don't think the split you propose would make the situation significantly worse, and it would fill in a link for the "Social issues" item of the template, so I have no objections to it. Mathnerd314159 (talk) 01:55, 17 October 2024 (UTC)" - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alcohol_(drug)&oldid=1251615052#Proposed_Split[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241017015500","author":"Mathnerd314159","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Mathnerd314159-20241017015500-Rename_to_\"Template:Alcohol_(drug)\"","replies":[]}}-->

@Mathnerd314159: The current template titled "Alcohol" is problematic due to the existence of both Alcohol (drug) and Alcohol (chemistry). I suggest renaming it to Template:Alcohol (drug) since it specifically addresses alcohol in a drug context. What do you think about it? 94.255.152.53 (talk) 21:59, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241018215900","author":"94.255.152.53","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-94.255.152.53-20241018215900-Rename_to_\"Template:Alcohol_(drug)\"","replies":["c-Mathnerd314159-20241019004600-94.255.152.53-20241018215900"]}}-->

Well, Alcohol (chemistry) uses Template:Alcohols. The "s" means there would be no confusion. But at the end of the day, what the template is called doesn't matter, since it is an internal name. What I was talking about was less about moving the template per se and instead changing the header of the template; "Alcohol and health" no longer describes the scope and I would say at this point it should just be "Alcohol". Mathnerd314159 (talk) 00:46, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241019004600","author":"Mathnerd314159","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Mathnerd314159-20241019004600-94.255.152.53-20241018215900","replies":["c-94.255.152.53-20241019083800-Mathnerd314159-20241019004600"]}}-->

@Mathnerd314159: I see. So, if I understand correctly, you're suggesting that we change |title = [[Alcohol and health]] to |title = [[Alcohol (drug)|Alcohol]]? Feel free to make that change if you think it's appropriate. --94.255.152.53 (talk) 08:38, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241019083800","author":"94.255.152.53","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-94.255.152.53-20241019083800-Mathnerd314159-20241019004600","replies":["c-94.255.152.53-20241020180900-94.255.152.53-20241019083800"]}}-->

Thank you for applying it. --94.255.152.53 (talk) 18:09, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241020180900","author":"94.255.152.53","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-94.255.152.53-20241020180900-94.255.152.53-20241019083800","replies":[]}}-->

@Mathnerd314159: @Willondon: Three questions in bold text:

• Could you kindly cast your #Vote so we can proceed with moving this template for the sake of consistency?
• Anachronist made these changes
  • Removed {{Alcohol and health}} from Flavored fortified wine (despite Flavored_fortified_wine#Concerns_and_media_attention) - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Flavored_fortified_wine&diff=prev&oldid=1252049249
    • He wasn't made aware that we were in the process of renaming this template (Thank you for restoring the entries Mathnerd314159). Could you please relocate it to "Template:Alcohol (drug)" to avoid any further confusion? This way, people will use {{Alcohol (drug)}} instead of {{Alcohol and health}} in the articles. If you relocate the template, I will substitute {{Alcohol (drug)}} for {{Alcohol and health}} in every article that currently includes the template.
    • The "concerns" in that article were not about health. ~Anachronist (talk) 14:25, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241021142500","author":"Anachronist","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Anachronist-20241021142500-Rename_to_\"Template:Alcohol_(drug)\"","replies":["c-94.255.152.53-20241020180900-Anachronist-20241021142500","c-Mathnerd314159-20241021143600-Anachronist-20241021142500"]}}-->
  • "Protected "Template:Alcohol and health": Persistent disruptive editing ([Edit=Require autoconfirmed or confirmed access] (indefinite) [Move=Require autoconfirmed or confirmed access] (indefinite))" - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Alcohol_and_health&diff=prev&oldid=1252159480
    • I have contributed 18% of the template's content, but I'm now unable to make any edits. Anachronist implemented edit protection without giving me an opportunity to discuss it. Can you please remove this? --94.255.152.53 (talk) 18:09, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241020180900","author":"94.255.152.53","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-94.255.152.53-20241020180900-Anachronist-20241021142500","replies":["c-Anachronist-20241021142500-94.255.152.53-20241020180900"]}}-->
      • And I have removed some of your contributions, and warned you on your talk page. Your contributions seem to be bent on casting all articles about alcoholic beverages in a health or social context when those articles don't mention those contexts, and you have even gone so far as to add unsourced content or other content that has nothing to do with the article subject in your efforts to add articles to this template. I am not seeing these edits as constructive. Therefore, if you want to make changes to this template, make an edit request. ~Anachronist (talk) 14:25, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241021142500","author":"Anachronist","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Anachronist-20241021142500-94.255.152.53-20241020180900","replies":[]}}-->

My replies: (1) I have voted. (2) The general policy is to wait 7 days to ensure everyone has commented who wishes to. Technically we could have used the WP:RM process but I think it is perhaps overkill in this situation. (3) There is an unprotection process but the first step would be to discuss it with Anachronist on Anachronist's talk page. My personal advice has been and continues to be that you should create an account. Many pages are (justifiably) protected and edit requests are additional work for everyone involved. Mathnerd314159 (talk) 14:36, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241021143600","author":"Mathnerd314159","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Mathnerd314159-20241021143600-Anachronist-20241021142500","replies":[]}}-->

@Willondon, Mathnerd314159, and EducatedRedneck: This template is focused on Alcohol (drug) in general, which also includes Alcohol and health. Mathnerd314159 has changed the title from "Alcohol and health" to "Alcohol (drug). Also, "Alcohol and health portal was recently deleted" (#Link_to_deleted_portal_removed). So do you support renaming this wiki template ('Template:Alcohol_and_health') to 'Template:Alcohol_(drug)'?

• Support as proposer --94.255.152.53 (talk) 18:15, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241019181500","author":"94.255.152.53","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-94.255.152.53-20241019181500-Vote","replies":["c-EducatedRedneck-20241019182100-94.255.152.53-20241019181500","c-Mathnerd314159-20241021140600-94.255.152.53-20241019181500"]}}-->

• Weak support It seems like a good idea to me, but I'm too unfamiliar with the template space to cast an informed vote, so feel free to disregard this. (Hence weak.) Alcohol (drug) makes it clear which is the highest-level overview, restricts it to the interaction between the substance and humans, and is broad enough to contain the various facets (abuse, social interactions, religion, adverse effects, etc.) That's my $0.02. EducatedRedneck (talk) 18:21, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241019182100","author":"EducatedRedneck","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-EducatedRedneck-20241019182100-94.255.152.53-20241019181500","replies":[]}}-->

Support In 2014, it was moved by David Hedlund and moved back by Ryulong Special:Diff/615043298, but there are many more articles at this point and I think expanding the navbox scope is appropriate to keep track of them all. Mathnerd314159 (talk) 14:06, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241021140600","author":"Mathnerd314159","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Mathnerd314159-20241021140600-94.255.152.53-20241019181500","replies":["c-94.255.152.53-20241021214100-Mathnerd314159-20241021140600","c-94.255.152.53-20241109033700-Mathnerd314159-20241021140600"]}}-->

Thank you! That will ensure consistency with the Glossary of alcohol (drug) terms that I began today. --94.255.152.53 (talk) 21:41, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241021214100","author":"94.255.152.53","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-94.255.152.53-20241021214100-Mathnerd314159-20241021140600","replies":[]}}-->

@Mathnerd314159: It has been approximately three weeks since our last discussion. Are we prepared to proceed with the template transition? --94.255.152.53 (talk) 03:37, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241109033700","author":"94.255.152.53","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-94.255.152.53-20241109033700-Mathnerd314159-20241021140600","replies":["c-Mathnerd314159-20241109162000-94.255.152.53-20241109033700"]}}-->

Well, it seems clear at this point that the template is going to be renamed, but I'm still not clear on the title, I was thinking Template:Alcohol but your suggestion is Template:Alcohol (drug). There aren't a lot of templates with parentheses in their names though. Mathnerd314159 (talk) 16:20, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241109162000","author":"Mathnerd314159","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Mathnerd314159-20241109162000-94.255.152.53-20241109033700","replies":["c-94.255.152.53-20241110003700-Mathnerd314159-20241109162000"]}}-->

@Mathnerd314159: The title link of the navbox is "Alcohol (drug)" (thanks), which directly matches my suggested template name, Template:Alcohol_(drug). Also the navbox includes links to articles like "Pharmacology of ethanol" and "Effects of alcohol on memory, and sections on alcohol control, addiction medicine, and related health issues, which all are focused specifically on alcohol as a drug, rather than alcohol in general; The alcohol article lists the Ethanol and Alcohol (chemistry) articles that are using the Template:Alcohols template. I appreciate that you brought up the issue about the parentheses. However, while it's true that templates with parentheses in their names are uncommon, making an exception for Template:Alcohol_(drug) is justified in my opinion for several reasons. Firstly, there are no explicit rules prohibiting the use of parentheses in template names. Secondly, this naming convention accurately reflects the specific focus and context of the content, ensuring clarity and precision in categorizing the complex health and social issues related to alcohol as a psychoactive substance. Additionally, the parenthetical clarification makes it easier for editors to add the template to the correct articles and avoid mistakenly including it in articles about alcohol that are unrelated to its effects as a drug, such as those focusing on industrial or chemical applications. --94.255.152.53 (talk) 00:37, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241110003700","author":"94.255.152.53","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-94.255.152.53-20241110003700-Mathnerd314159-20241109162000","replies":["c-94.255.152.53-20241110161600-94.255.152.53-20241110003700"]}}-->

"The alcohol article lists the Ethanol and Alcohol (chemistry) articles that are using the Template:Alcohols template." -- The existing Template:Alcohols is limited to listing only alcohols. If an additional template were to be introduced that included links about alcohol chemistry, an appropriate name for such a template would be Template:Alcohols (chemistry). This new template would complement the current one by providing broader information on the chemical aspects of alcohols. --94.255.152.53 (talk) 16:16, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241110161600","author":"94.255.152.53","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-94.255.152.53-20241110161600-94.255.152.53-20241110003700","replies":["c-94.255.152.53-20241110162800-94.255.152.53-20241110161600"]}}-->

I just proposed "Template_talk:Alcohol_(chemistry)" here --94.255.152.53 (talk) 16:28, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241110162800","author":"94.255.152.53","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-94.255.152.53-20241110162800-94.255.152.53-20241110161600","replies":[]}}-->