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I'm new to editing, so I was not intending on resubmitting without edits. It appears the merge did not work appropriately. The updated submission is in. Apologies. Sabanas1987 (talk) 18:15, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240717181500","author":"Sabanas1987","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sabanas1987-20240717181500-Draft_Submission","replies":[]}}-->
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"It's a diphthong, calling for /w/"
No, it's a diphthong, calling for an asyllabic vowel. Most of the instances I see of 'w' and 'j' at the end of a syllable should actually be asyllabic vowels, which are different from semivowels; in fact, portuguese doesn't even have semivowels, nor does spanish (not at the end of a syllable at least) Sérgio R R Santos (talk) 22:36, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240808223600","author":"S\u00e9rgio R R Santos","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-S\u00e9rgio_R_R_Santos-20240808223600-reverts_regarding_'w'_vs_'u\u032f'","replies":["c-Largoplazo-20240808232100-S\u00e9rgio_R_R_Santos-20240808223600"]}}-->
@Sérgio R R Santos: Are you talking phonetically or phonemically? The Help pages given the conventions that are recommended for use on Wikipedia, which are meant to be somewhat generic. Consistency is a good thing. Largoplazo (talk) 23:21, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240808232100","author":"Largoplazo","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Largoplazo-20240808232100-S\u00e9rgio_R_R_Santos-20240808223600","replies":["c-S\u00e9rgio_R_R_Santos-20240808235000-Largoplazo-20240808232100"]}}-->
I'm a native speaker of portuguese, semivowels don't occur in my language at any level. The reason the symbols "w" and "j" keep beeing used by linguists to describe portuguese phonology is because they don't understand the diference between asyllabic vowels and semivowels; it took myself a long time too to understand the difference, but it's quite simple: semivowels ( 'w', 'j', and 'ɥ'), in languages that have them, behave phonemecaly like consonants while asyllabic vowels (u̯ i̯ y̯) behave phonemicaly like vowels. For instance, the portuguese word 'pai' (father) is pronounced [pai̯] and not [paj], that's how the french word 'paille' is pronounced. Sérgio R R Santos (talk) 23:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240808235000","author":"S\u00e9rgio R R Santos","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-S\u00e9rgio_R_R_Santos-20240808235000-Largoplazo-20240808232100","replies":["c-Largoplazo-20240809001400-S\u00e9rgio_R_R_Santos-20240808235000"]}}-->
That's very funny, both the notion that linguists, of all people, the people whose job it is to understand these things, and who are trained to do so, don't understand a concept from the field of linguistics and the concept that native speakers of a language are more likely to understand its phonology than linguists who study it from a linguistic perspective do.
Be that as it may, I'm not doubting what you say as to what the actual phonemes or their realizations are. However, it's been my understanding that the motivation here is to keep the representation simple, avoiding symbols with less-known diacritics like u̯ i̯ y̯, unless a given language has both features and needs separate representation for them. Also, I see my premise was correct only for English: at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Pronunciation, it says that for languages other than English, phonetic transcription is normally used.
I'm not going to pursue it if you change it back, but in case anyone else takes issue with your version, it might be worthwhile to see if it's been discussed before at the talk pages of any of the pages I've linked to. Largoplazo (talk) 00:14, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240809001400","author":"Largoplazo","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Largoplazo-20240809001400-S\u00e9rgio_R_R_Santos-20240808235000","replies":["c-S\u00e9rgio_R_R_Santos-20240809130000-Largoplazo-20240809001400"]}}-->
Yes, it is funny that professional linguists fail to understand some simple concepts of phonology, like the distincion between vowels and semivowels, as opposed to a guy like me who learned about it on wikipedia. The way you phrased it makes me think that you find me a bit arrogant and that i think i know better than linguists; however, linguistics, and phonology in particular, is not rocket science. We're not talking about surgery or astrophysycs, like i said i learned it through wikipedia (over a few years) - in fact, if it wasn't for wikipedia i don' know if i would ever get interested in linguistics. And yes, being a native speaker of a language gives you a significative advantage in describing said language provided you have at least some decent knowledge of linguistics.
Regarding "avoiding symbols with less-known diacritics like u̯ i̯ y̯", you could argue that most IPA symbols are unknown to most people, so, there's that.
"unless a given language has both features and needs separate representation for them" - well, english just happens to be one of those languages.
Regarding your last point i will check those pages and probably will have to start the discussion myself.
To finish, i don't think that symbols like u̯ i̯ are particularly "less-known" or difficult to understand, since they are regularly used in the description of english, so if you don't mind i'd like to revert your changes
Cheers. Sérgio R R Santos (talk) 13:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240809130000","author":"S\u00e9rgio R R Santos","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-S\u00e9rgio_R_R_Santos-20240809130000-Largoplazo-20240809001400","replies":["c-Largoplazo-20240809132300-S\u00e9rgio_R_R_Santos-20240809130000"]}}-->
When I said it was funny, I meant it was absurd for you to think that. Who other than linguists do you think developed these concepts so that Wikipedia could report them? Who do you think wrote the works that Wikipedia cites to support them? Largoplazo (talk) 13:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240809132300","author":"Largoplazo","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Largoplazo-20240809132300-S\u00e9rgio_R_R_Santos-20240809130000","replies":["c-S\u00e9rgio_R_R_Santos-20240809133400-Largoplazo-20240809132300"]}}-->
Did you actually read anything I wrote besides that? You are talking about the general history of linguistics (of which I made no mention), and I agree with what said about that; what I'm talking about is the correct phonetic description of a specific language. I mean, what's even the point of coming up with a whole phonetic alphabet with specific symbols for each sound, and then not use it properly? Sérgio R R Santos (talk) 13:34, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240809133400","author":"S\u00e9rgio R R Santos","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-S\u00e9rgio_R_R_Santos-20240809133400-Largoplazo-20240809132300","replies":[]}}-->
Dear Largoplazo,
I need a third opinion on a subject, discussed on my talk page:
Strict logic offers a new perspective. In fact, it comes up with new solutions. It focus on the principle if identity and the principle of limitation. Its goal is a whole new logic, without antonomies and paradoxies. It can help readers to understand reality. Over many years of experience it paves a new way to reach problems. Experts on the field noticed a lack in other logical theories. Using this emerging theory will disrupt old ideas. It paves the way of a whole new understanding.
Greetings, 123qweasd (talk) 12:27, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240810122700","author":"123qweasd","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-123qweasd-20240810122700-Third_opinion","replies":["c-Largoplazo-20240810125900-123qweasd-20240810122700"]}}-->
@123qweasd: How would I be the source of a third opinion when I'm the one who proposed deleting the article? My original opinion was "Non-notable theory from a non-notable book by a person who may not be notable. Doesn't meet WP:GNG, with no suitable coverage found via Google." Wikipedia isn't a forum for proposing new theories, regardless of the merit someone considers them to have. It's for presenting solid information on topics that are deemed notable. In the case of a theory, this would mean having received substantial independent coverage in reliable sources. Largoplazo (talk) 12:59, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240810125900","author":"Largoplazo","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Largoplazo-20240810125900-123qweasd-20240810122700","replies":["c-123qweasd-20240810132100-Largoplazo-20240810125900"]}}-->
Okay. But i think, i tried my best. Obviously reading the version of syllogism is too much asked for. (As relating to the subject, is a minimum aquirement of every information) 123qweasd (talk) 13:21, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240810132100","author":"123qweasd","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-123qweasd-20240810132100-Largoplazo-20240810125900","replies":["c-123qweasd-20240810132600-123qweasd-20240810132100"]}}-->
requirement not aquirement
123qweasd (talk) 13:26, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240810132600","author":"123qweasd","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-123qweasd-20240810132600-123qweasd-20240810132100","replies":[]}}-->
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Hi Largoplaza, I was browsing Special:NewPagesFeed and came across this new article Pini Althaus. I'm almost certain it's some sort of promotional article but I can't really tell why. The whole thing seems kinda wordy and I can't seem to grasp exactly who this article is about, what it is they do or why they're notable. Just came across your telltale signs of candidates for deletion and thought to stop by and ask for your opinion on this. One of your signs is ... over X years of experience ...- well, the Pini Althaus article has that in the first line! Any ideas? Thanks Limmidy (talk)05:23, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240905052300","author":"Limmidy","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Limmidy-20240905052300-Opinion_on_this_new_article_I_came_across","replies":["c-Largoplazo-20240905144400-Limmidy-20240905052300"]}}-->
@Limmidy: Hi, I took a look at it and found that someone's already done what I would have done: marked it as promotional and moved it to draft space at Draft:Pini Althaus. The person does seem to be notable, so it would be reasonable to have a neutral article about the person, but not a glorification like that on! I appreciate your referencing my rules of thumb. I should add a Biography section that makes heavy use of "under his leadership", "during his tenure", etc., attempting to cast every achievement by an organization as a direct accomplishment of the article's subject. Largoplazo (talk) 14:44, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240905144400","author":"Largoplazo","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Largoplazo-20240905144400-Limmidy-20240905052300","replies":["c-Limmidy-20240906024600-Largoplazo-20240905144400"]}}-->
@Largoplazo: Hahaha so glad I reached out! Thank you. Limmidy (talk)02:46, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240906024600","author":"Limmidy","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Limmidy-20240906024600-Largoplazo-20240905144400","replies":[]}}-->
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I have some questions about creating a new article, send me your email Zayn Hesham (talk) 06:52, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240923065200","author":"Zayn Hesham","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Zayn_Hesham-20240923065200-Can_you_help_me_create_a_new_article_?","replies":[]}}-->
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Hi Largoplazo, just thought I'd doublecheck if you actually do want to put all that personal information on Talk:Mauritius. You don't seem to have it on your user page, and article talkpages feel qualitatively more public than userspace or Wikipedia space. Best, CMD (talk) 17:01, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240925170100","author":"Chipmunkdavis","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Chipmunkdavis-20240925170100-Personal_details_on_Talk:Mauritius","replies":["c-Largoplazo-20240925175400-Chipmunkdavis-20240925170100"],"displayName":"CMD"}}-->
@Chipmunkdavis: I appreciate the note. Yeah, my intent was to supply the background that Varoon and I had already had a discussion and that I'd laid out my reasoning. I'm not so concerned from a privacy standpoint but even so the amount of that discussion that isn't on-point would distract from the core points so it's a well that I don't direct attention to the whole conversation. Thanks. Largoplazo (talk) 17:54, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240925175400","author":"Largoplazo","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Largoplazo-20240925175400-Chipmunkdavis-20240925170100","replies":[]}}-->
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Do we consider [1] to be vandalism? They're a wikiEdu student. Should someone bring that edit up to them, or should we assume good faith and not do anything? I'm asking here rather than on the talk page since I don't want to insult the editor unnecessarily. McYeee (talk) 20:06, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241123200600","author":"McYeee","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-McYeee-20241123200600-Edit_I_reverted","replies":["c-Largoplazo-20241123213400-McYeee-20241123200600"]}}-->
Especially considering the amount of effort (number of edits) they spent tailoring the language, I don't see it as anything as other than a good-faith contribution. Why do you think it's vandalism? Of course, you were correct to remove it because (a) it's a misstatement of what the cited source says, and (b) the inhabitants before the arrival of Catholics obviously didn't give those places Catholic names they couldn't possibly have been aware of. I don't think you have to go beyond your edit summary, but, since they cited the source, which might seem to them to legitimize their contribution and which you didn't address, it wouldn't be uncourteous of you to elaborate on your reasoning on their own talk page that what they wrote misrepresented that source. Use your judgement. I don't usually do that when I remove something with what I consider a reasonable and adequate explanation in my edit summary but sometimes it seems like a fair thing to do. Largoplazo (talk) 21:34, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241123213400","author":"Largoplazo","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Largoplazo-20241123213400-McYeee-20241123200600","replies":["c-McYeee-20241123214700-Largoplazo-20241123213400"]}}-->
I think you're right that it is good faith. That sentence just looked so obviously wrong to me that I found it hard to assume good faith but, now that you ask, I realize that for someone who hasn't spent 20 years in Ventura county, "venturano" is probably not an obvious Spanish-Language reference to Saint Bonaventure. Thanks for your time, and I'll make sure to assume good faith next time. I won't say anything on the talk page unless it gets added back; I should probably get back to real life obligations. McYeee (talk) 21:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241123214700","author":"McYeee","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-McYeee-20241123214700-Largoplazo-20241123213400","replies":[]}}-->
